Dec 26 2009
More On Pacquiao, Mayweather, And HGH (And It Gets Sillier)
Just when you thought the Manny Pacquaio and Floyd Mayweather negotiations couldn’t get any sillier, it got sillier. Bob Arum thinks the fight is now off, Golden Boy Promotions thinks something can still be worked out, and Manny wants to sue for defamation of character. Um, huh?
I wrote a few days ago (and the comments section is going crazy) that I thought it was overboard to add the drug test stipulation that I didn’t think Mayweather’s camp was genuine with their concerns. I thought that they simply added this drug testing bit to make Manny look bad rather than actually worrying about him being on drugs.
I’ve come off some of it slightly, only because that I think a fight of this magnitude deserves the most strenuous drug testing available. But I still don’t think Mayweather’s camp is genuine about their concerns. I think they like to see Bob Arum make a fool out of himself by basically hanging Pacquiao with his statements about what drug tests Manny would agree to. He’s come off those, but still, they were foolish when he said them.
But now, the silliest of the silly has come out.
Supposedly, Manny Pacquiao wants to sue for defamation of character. From Dan Rafael:
“Enough is enough. These people, Mayweather Sr., [Mayweather] Jr. and Golden Boy Promotions, think it is a joke and a right to accuse someone wrongly of using steroids or other performance-enhancing drugs,” said Pacquiao, who denied that he has ever used any banned substance and who has passed all of his drug tests. “I have tried to just brush it off as a mere prefight ploy, but I think they have gone overboard.”
Now, this is boxing. It’s a sport in which you handle mere differences with your fists inside of a ring. You take the guess work out of everything by stepping through the ropes and saying, “The best man shall win.” Of the boxers going today, Manny Pacquiao is one of the best. He handles his business inside the squared circle better than just about anyone. And I think he’s playing his cards wrong.
Part of the reason why I always thought this fight was going to be hard to put together is because I thought Mayweather’s camp was going to make negotiations hell. I thought Floyd was going to ask for the moon. But it didn’t work out that way. Though we don’t know all of the details, what we’ve heard is that most everything was done smoothly. Mayweather even agreed to a harsh monetary penalty in case someone missed weight. And then word came out that he wanted Olympic-style drug testing for the fight.
I still don’t think he and his camp are truly genuine in what they want. As I stated in my article from a few days ago, HGH testing is completely fallible. It doesn’t stay in the blood stream for very long and even if you have both boxers tested like athletes are tested in the Olympics, who is to say they will work? Did you hear of anyone failing at the last two Olympics for HGH?
The other reason I thought Floyd and his camp weren’t being genuine in their wish for this type of drug testing is because HGH is a new buzzword in the world of performance enhancing drugs, yet we’re not sure that it’s even going to really help a boxer. A boxer will more than likely be helped more so with testosterone. And I think that if Floyd really wanted strenuous drug testing, that should be his focus. Have daily urine tests which will make sure that steroids will be caught. It’s less invasive and yet will still get the job done.
And now, Manny has played directly into his hands. By claiming that he’s suing for defamation of character, he’s coming off as a cry baby. People won’t think that he’s any less clean than they previously thought he was. By going this route, it sounds like it’s a way to keep from testing for the things that Mayweather’s camp thinks he could possibly be taking. Now, he’s cornered himself to where I think his only possible step forward would be to accept the harsher drug testing demands. Rather than acting like an innocent person, Pacquiao has done what other steroids users have done; he’s used his statements instead of his actions to try and prove himself. And I’m not saying that Pacquiao is a cheater. I’m saying that he’s acting like one.
Early steroid cheaters (and I’d rather not name names) would say to the press, “Test me right now.” But without a doctor available, it was just talking the talk. And plus, because of the powerful player’s unions, there’s no way they’d be allowed to do that anyway. Now, the only way that Pacquiao can prove to the doubters is to go through with it, which in my eyes, he never would’ve had to. I really wonder who is calling his shots here because whoever it is, is leading him down the wrong hill.
I also think that if this fight doesn’t come off now, the public opinion is going to be that it’s because Pacquiao didn’t want to agree to tests that would’ve made sure he was 100% clean. And for the reasons I’ve already stated in this post as well as my last one, that’s complete hogwash because HGH tests are more erroneous than error free.
More than ever, this fight needs to happen because for the first time in a very long time, Manny Pacquiao isn’t the dandy of the boxing world. People are actually doubting him, which I would’ve never guessed six months ago. But then again, I would’ve never guessed that Tiger Woods was a rolling stone.
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no pro boxer has taken this USADA kind of dope testing before, not one in the history of pro boxing.
if nobody bothers to take it, why would manny bother?!?
nobody can push him to take what he is not required to. it’s his prerogative. i’m glad he knows his rights and stood his ground.
there is nothing he has done in the past that should put him under any suspicion of taking dope. his accusers should prove him guilty instead of him proving himself innocent.
he is suing the mayweathers and putting the burden of proof on their side. now he can sip his tequila while the maywethers are busy looking for evidence.
If you read my first post, you’d see that I generally agreed with your first point. Mayweather, in my opinion, was trying to strong-arm him into doing something he didn’t have to do.
But the way he reacted to it now I think paints him into a corner. We’ll see what happens here. I still think the fight happens as they fix it in the next two weeks, but that window is closing.
you see, people think that it’s all about the test. it’s not! it’s about the pride of a champion.
you cannot just treat anyone like a criminal whose hiding something. you don’t do that! you don’t stop somebody on the street and start searching the person’s pocket because your watch is missing.
you don’t do that to anybody, you don’t do that to a homeless man on the street…
AND MOST OF ALL, YOU DON’T DO THAT TO A VERY, VERY PROUD CHAMPION LIKE MANNY PACQUIAO! HE’S NOT THE BOXING KING FOR NOTHING.
THEY DISRESPECTED HIM!
now he is taking the mayweathers to court, GBP included.
he is putting the burden of proof on his accusers. pacquiao is not going to prove himself innocent. he is going to make his accusers prove him guilty of doping, and that’s a tough thing to prove since he has nothing of such in the past.
mayweather has a choice: fight pacquiao in the ring or fight him in court. by fighting pacquiao in the ring he has a sure $40 mil. fighting pacquiao in court may cause him to pay damages and no $40 mil.
no way out now for floyd, no more ducking, no more running away from an elite opponent!
hey, i’ve spend time to write this so be sure to post it.
I agree with most everything you said, but the way he’s handled this isn’t with the pride of a champion. If it was all about his pride, he’d have agreed to any kind of testing available.
By “running” to the courts because he was accused of something he supposedly didn’t do, it’s a weak move. It’s not the move I expected from him.
what exactly are you expecting him to do?
i taught it was a class act from somebody who has class like manny. he’s been a classy champion eversince and he won’t get himself caught in trash talking.
you see, he’s putting mayweather in a position were he’s not going anywhere. if floyd stick to his demand of amatuer type dope testing, then there is a stalemate and manny will sue, which is not beneficial to floyd (manny can get some damages from it).
so floyd will either negotiate and bend his demand (they are talking about it at the moment and manny is not totally againts blood testing) and fight manny in the ring OR face a lawsuit.
manny’s camp all along don’t believe that floyd will really do this fight. they believe that floyd will look for reason to duck along the way.
I disagree with you on this GG. You say he is being harrassed but you think he should not sue because it makes him look guilty? I dont get that one bit
I agree with guest 100%. The lawsuit is not about proving someone innocent or guilty, its about accusing someone without any basis. You have to go through step 1 before you can go to step 2. If step 1 is unfounded and immoral, how can you even talk about step 2? You are putting the cart before the horse, GG
Hey Gil,
I didn’t at one time say Mayweather was harassing him. I did say that I didn’t think Mayweather’s actions were genuine for the sport of boxing. I think he’s just messing with Team Pacquiao because he can.
Let me give you a scenario.
Let’s say that you and I were going to do battle. We were going to do battle one on one swinging batons at each other, trying to knock each other off planks and into the water. Think of an American Gladiator competition or something.
Before the competition I tell people that I’m not getting on the plank with you unless you subjected yourself to invasive drug testing and I would do the same. The way that you’d handle that situation wouldn’t be sue me. You’d either work it out and compromise or you’d just not do it. Either way that you handle that situation is fine.
But the second you sue me, you’re taking just as less than genuine of an action that I just said Mayweather took. Pacquiao isn’t trying to prove anything. He’s actually doing the opposite. To the common fan, he’s running to his mother. And who likes it when lawyers have to settle battles instead of two guys fighting on a plank?
And let me answer your second statement. By wanting an invasive drug test, is Mayweather accusing Manny of being on drugs, or is he just looking out for his best interests (even though I still don’t think they’re genuine). Is Manny also going to sue Paulie Malignaggi for saying that he thinks Manny is taking something? It’s ludicrous. It really is.
Hey guest,
I’m not trying to analyze if Manny is being classy or not. I’m trying to analyze how he’s dealing with this situation as he prepares for the biggest fight of our lifetime. Look at what you just said.
“manny’s camp all along don’t believe that floyd will really do this fight. they believe that floyd will look for reason to duck along the way.”
Is it Floyd who didn’t want to be drug tested or Manny? The public opinion is going to show that all Manny is doing with this lawsuit business is find a way to not test. He’s not doing himself any favors with this stuff.
You are just playing with words, GG. Not harrassing, but messing? Not accusing but just an opinion? If it is your opinion that I am a murderer and a thief and tell the whole world about it, do i not have a right to sue you for defamation? Can you say, well, i am not accusing you of anything, its just my opinion, y’know.
This is not just about boxing and drugs anymore GG. And yes, if it werent for its impractlcality, he has a right to sue anyone who even insinuates he is a cheater on the basis of nothing except what he has accomplished
To boot, its your way of thinking that ultimately kills the sport, GG. Its about time we put a stop to the use of tactics like messing with ones head like the Mayweathers are known for and stick to just boxing inside the ring.
Your story also hides the part where the gladiator tells the media that there is no way someone like that can win those previous fights without banned substances. Isnt Mayweather Sr saying now, “I was right about what i said before!” Right about what? What has he proven. It is naive to think that they are doing this just to protect their man like you said. Cause if they know as much as what you are saying about HGH, they would know it wouldnt prove anything. Just mind games, cunning and devilish.
You said “Pacquiao isn’t trying to prove anything (by suing). He is actually doing the opposite”.
That’s because you are still focusing on proving whether he is clean of drugs or not. What he is trying to prove is that no one can accuse him or anyone, without any basis except what he has achieved.
hello writer,
i love it when you mentioned ‘public opinion’.
manny pacquiao, right now, is being tried in the court of public opinion. in the court of public opinion, it is the mob that rules!
and that’s one of the reason why pacquioa is going to the court of law! in there he can face his accusers squarely. they will have to present evidence that their accusations are valid.
but in the court of public opinion, it’s like the witch hunt of 1700 and mcarthyism’s blind hunt for communists:
(‘McCarthyism is the politically motivated practice of making accusations of disloyalty, subversion, or treason without proper regard for evidence’)
do you want to be subjected to a court where you can’t defend yourself.
it’s a class act by pacquiao. i’m glad that he know his rights and stood his ground. he showed that nobody jerk him around, and that nobody twist his arm to make a demand – now, that’s pride of a champion.
if mayweather doesn’t want to fight him in the ring then they will meet each other in the court.
then manny will take care of malignaggi, another accuser, in the ring because paulie is willing to mix it up. with how angry manny is right now, i hope malignaggi don’t end in a coma. manny’s not only going to the ring to win, he is going in there on a personal mission!
well said guest.
GG, you also said Manny should not go to court like a cry baby going back to his mother. It is ironical that you perceive anyone who defends his honor as a cry baby and that the court of law is his mother. A kid who gets bullied can do one of two things: go home and cry to his mama or go to the principal’s office and get that kid expelled. Ok, there is a third option, and that is, to punch the bully right back. But what if the bully runs and hides before you can even touch him? Hope you get the analogy here.
Well, Manny is not indestructible and if he walks away from the Mayweather Fight, I would lose all respect for him and I’d hope that Paulie give him an ass whipping of the century. Remember,
you pay for what you do wrong in life and judging from how Pac Man is behaving he is looking like a cheat whose beat down will br coming soon. Manny can’t run from truth forever. I promise you that.
Hey Gil,
“If it is your opinion that I am a murderer and a thief and tell the whole world about it, do i not have a right to sue you for defamation? Can you say, well, i am not accusing you of anything, its just my opinion, y’know.”
Accusing someone of murder and asking them to take an invasive drug test are on two completely different spectrums. You have to see that.
“To boot, its your way of thinking that ultimately kills the sport, GG. Its about time we put a stop to the use of tactics like messing with ones head like the Mayweathers are known for and stick to just boxing inside the ring.”
I’m going to guess that you’ve been a boxing fan for a very long time. When has boxing never been about politics? It’s been about politics since when I first started watching in the mid 80s. And until you have one solitary unit running the sport, it’s always going to be about politics.
“Cause if they know as much as what you are saying about HGH, they would know it wouldnt prove anything. Just mind games, cunning and devilish.”
It is mind games, in my opinion. I said that from the start. And I’ve disagreed with how they’ve been handling it.
“That’s because you are still focusing on proving whether he is clean of drugs or not. What he is trying to prove is that no one can accuse him or anyone, without any basis except what he has achieved.”
Anyone can accuse you of anything. It’s called freedom of speech. I’m guessing that he has zero case, which is why I think it’s idiotic.
Hey guest,
“and that’s one of the reason why pacquioa is going to the court of law! in there he can face his accusers squarely. they will have to present evidence that their accusations are valid.”
Their factual evidence is that they presented Manny with the opportunity to do an invasive drug test that he would also go through and Manny denied taking it. Is it going to stand up? Probably not, but neither is an idiotic case where your entire reasoning is that someone said you might’ve taken drugs. Big deal.
“if mayweather doesn’t want to fight him in the ring then they will meet each other in the court.
then manny will take care of malignaggi, another accuser, in the ring because paulie is willing to mix it up. with how angry manny is right now, i hope malignaggi don’t end in a coma. manny’s not only going to the ring to win, he is going in there on a personal mission!”
Looking back, I think you’re going to see how silly that sounds. What Mayweather is presenting is a drug test in which you draw blood. Pacquiao doesn’t want to take it for whatever reason. It’s Pacquiao who is disagreeing, not Mayweather. It’s Pacquaio who is failing to sign the dotted line. Don’t you see that? That’s why I think the whole lawsuit is stupid. Mayweather looks like the guy who wants to fight here and Pac doesn’t.
Let’s see Manny draw with Paulie. Good luck. If Manny vs. Floyd was going to do 2 million buys, Manny vs. Paulie would be lucky to do 500,000.
GG
“GG, you also said Manny should not go to court like a cry baby going back to his mother. It is ironical that you perceive anyone who defends his honor as a cry baby and that the court of law is his mother. A kid who gets bullied can do one of two things: go home and cry to his mama or go to the principal’s office and get that kid expelled. Ok, there is a third option, and that is, to punch the bully right back. But what if the bully runs and hides before you can even touch him? Hope you get the analogy here.”
Your analogy works, but only if you switch the participants.
Look at it without the Pacquiao glasses on.
Floyd wants Manny to drug test. Manny declines. Manny wants to sue Floyd because how dare he expect him to take an invasive drug test. Your third option doesn’t exist if Manny takes it to the courts. He’s the one who is hiding in your analogy, not Floyd.
“you pay for what you do wrong in life and judging from how Pac Man is behaving he is looking like a cheat whose beat down will br coming soon. Manny can’t run from truth forever. I promise you that.”
Dave’s perspective of the situation is how many people are going to look at the situation.
Now people are trying to paint me as someone against Manny and that’s far from the truth. I simply think by running to the courts, he proves nothing and looks like the guy who isn’t agreeing to the fight when I don’t think it’s that cut and dry.
Both guys are to blame here, but if Pacquiao takes that route, he’s going to look at the bad guy and Floyd will have manipulated the public opinion. It’s not a smart move.
This latest article is just more proof that Team Pacquiao is coming off badly – http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=4772853.
“Accusing someone of murder and asking them to take an invasive drug test are on two completely different spectrums. You have to see that.”
“Anyone can accuse you of anything. It’s called freedom of speech. I’m guessing that he has zero case, which is why I think it’s idiotic.”
Did they or did they not accuse Manny of being a cheat before they asked for the invasive drug test? Yes or No?
Your second statement indicates that you believe they did accuse him but you say it’s freedom of speech? Are you serious? If that is true, there no such thing as defamation. Freedom of speech is not synonymous to abuse of speech. People go to jail for that. And yes, only the courts can decide what is abusive or not as every Tom, Dick and Harry will have a different opinion.
“Your analogy works, but only if you switch the participants.”
double-standard
Your version: “Floyd wants Manny to drug test. Manny declines.”
Mine: Floyd camp accuses Manny of taking drugs, wants Manny to take invasive drug test
Yours: “Manny wants to sue Floyd because how dare he expect him to take an invasive drug test.”
Mine: Manny wants to sue Floyd because how dare he accuse him without any basis except his achievements
You: Your third option doesn’t exist if Manny takes it to the courts.
Me: That’s why its called a third option
You: He’s the one who is hiding in your analogy, not Floyd.
Me: Who’s wearing the glasses now?
“Dave’s perspective of the situation is how many people are going to look at the situation.”
Yes, it is called the folly of the human mind. That’s why the only way for Manny to be vindicated is through the courts, not through talk shows and opinion polls. Once the court rules, public opinion will be swayed.
“Now people are trying to paint me as someone against Manny and that’s far from the truth. I simply think by running to the courts, he proves nothing and looks like the guy who isn’t agreeing to the fight when I don’t think it’s that cut and dry.”
Go back to my previous post. I have responded to this already
“Both guys are to blame here, but if Pacquiao takes that route, he’s going to look at the bad guy and Floyd will have manipulated the public opinion. It’s not a smart move.”
I disagree.
GG, I read the espn article. What part of it are you saying puts Team Pacquiao in a bad light?
“Did they or did they not accuse Manny of being a cheat before they asked for the invasive drug test? Yes or No?”
Floyd Sr. has stated in the past that he believes Manny is taking something. If he is simply stating his opinion, let’s see how far Manny can take that.
I still don’t get your analogy as it pertains to Manny. The point still remains that it’s Manny who is holding up the fight. As I’ve said all along, I don’t like Mayweather’s tactics in this, but it’s not him who looks like he’s withholding. Manny looks like the one who is taking his ball and going home.
See, you think it’s a folly of the human mind, but that’s because you see the situation as how you do. How about everyone else in this world? My basis is that more people will see it like Dave, not like you. But that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. If you want to continue to hang onto it and argue it to the death, that’s your right to do so. We’ll continue to go around and around on it, but that’s the way people are. They see things differently.
As for the ESPN article, the part that makes Manny look bad is that Arum’s contention was that they didn’t want the Olympic drug testing to be done by the same committee because they were inflexible. So GBP comes back and says, ok, we’ll do it with this other group who governs the testing with the other professional sports. And now Arum is backtracking again saying, no, we’ll only do what the NSAC wants us to do, which takes us all the way back to square one. Arum has put his foot in his mouth so many times here, and he’s the one killing Manny’s reputation.
He wants the drug tests scheduled, which means they will be easy to beat because when you know the schedules, it makes it easy to cycle off at the right times.
You don’t think this makes Manny look bad?
Lastly, if Manny really goes through with this lawsuit, what is he going to prove to show people that his character was defamed? Did he lose sponsorships? Did his home country turn on him and ask him to give his title back?
This is why it’s a dumb lawsuit. It’s Manny who will have to prove that he was hurt in some way. All Floyd Sr. has to say was that he was simply building up interest for the fight and has no idea if Manny takes these things. Is there anything conclusive there? No way. It’s going to be a waste of time.
GG,
GG: ‘Their factual evidence is that they presented Manny with the opportunity to do an invasive drug test that he would also go through and Manny denied taking it’
-so there is this boxer named manny pacquiao who works very hard and eventually became very, very successful on his profession that he became the no. 1 boxer in the world. there are people tho who accused him of being a cheater WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE and offered him an opportunity to PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT HE IS NOT A CHEATER but he declined!
if i’m manny pacquiao i will surely go to court, win or lose, without any doubt. but we already know that he’s suing. i’ll leave the merits of the case to the court but facing a lawsuit is not the most convenient place that people want to be in. btw, a lawsuit can help make your opponent bend on his demand, right?
GG:’Looking back, I think you’re going to see how silly that sounds. What Mayweather is presenting is a drug test in which you draw blood. Pacquiao doesn’t want to take it for whatever reason. It’s Pacquiao who is disagreeing, not Mayweather. It’s Pacquaio who is failing to sign the dotted line. Don’t you see that? That’s why I think the whole lawsuit is stupid. Mayweather looks like the guy who wants to fight here and Pac doesn’t.’
-so mayweather insist that there will be no fight unless they undergo drug testing done by USADA which is:
1.drug testing that no pro boxer bother to take in the whole history of pro boxing
2.first time in floyd’s career that he demanded
3.not the authority to conduct drug testing in nevada
4.drug testing that pacquiao has no idea about and never heard of w/ people that he never have met before
5.very invasive method of testing
and you expect pacquiao to roll over and say YES! and if he doesn’t roll over and say yes to mayweather’s demand it means that he is hiding something.
floyd believes that he is the best boxer that ever walked on this planet, the greatest of all time, the biggest draw in boxing, and so on…..
and his fans believe that he is a god
BUT IN EYES OF MANNY PACQUIAO (p4p king, boxing of the year and probably of the decade, 7 wgt title holder, the boxing king right now who is on top of the food chain, returned boxing to news headline) MAYWEATHER IS JUST NO. 2, and should not be dictating the terms of this fight!
is it a surprise that he says NO to floyd’s unconditional demand.
so now we have a standoff. pacquiao, although not required to take this test, wants to negotiate on this unconditional demand from mayweather being the businessman that manny is. but what happened next?!? it’s now a big media circus.
GG:’I think the whole lawsuit is stupid’
-or a lawsuit can help you face off with your accuser on a level palying field , and send your opponent back to planet earth and to be reasonable on terms regarding their unconditional demand on dope testing method. check out the latest news:
“Mayweather camp: ‘We’re OK’ with less-stringent drug-testing protocol”
GG, You keep on arguing your point on the basis that Manny does not have a basis to go to court. Why don’t we let the courts decide that? The courts are there to protect people from the “public opinion” that you clearly say Mayweather is using to put Manny in a bad light.
Public Opinion – Guilty until proven innocent
Court of Law – Innocent until proven guilty
If you are thinking like the former, then you are part of the problem, regardless of the number of people who think like that.
If you are just analyzing strategies but agree with the latter, why are you taking that option away from the person who has no other option to protect himself?
Answer me that first (in a few words) before we go to the Arum issue.
@guest
You understand boxing negotiaions I presume. Mayweather and his camp agreed to some of Pac’s silly agreements and now it’s Pac’s turn to agree to Mayweather’s. I’m not saying that this is what is exactly happening. I’m saying that by the looks of it, it looks like Pacquiao is the one holding up the negotiations. Mayweather presented Pac with an agreement that they both have to do. To the public (those in the middle who don’t wear Mayweather or Pacquiao colored glasses), it looks like Pacquiao is holding up negotiations.
Since when does a lawsuit decide truth by the way?
@Gil
If you’ve been reading me, you know that I’m trying to present the information from a casual fan point of view. I’ve already stated that I think it’s in bad taste for Mayweather to add these restrictions so late in the negotiations. And I said that by Pacquaio taking his ball and going home (lawsuit), he’s painted himself in a corner.
I’m not taking either guy’s side. I’m representing the facts in the way that I’m reading them based on everything I’ve ever read, boxing history, my knowledge of the scene today, and my overall feel of the sports landscape.
I’ve put blame on both guys for doing what they’re doing. But out of everything I’ve read so far, you have one boxer trying to find the truth and one boxer trying to run from whatever he’s trying to run from. By doing what Pacquiao is doing, he’s trying to dodge something. He’s not trying to find truth. He’s trying to defend him brand from defamation. You know how you can defend that brand best?
@gg,
just a casual fan. i believe that manny was aggravated and has reasons to sue and i really wanted him to sue. by not completely agreeing to what mayweather is demanding, floyds team went public and incited malice that manny is hiding something – it’s mean, it’s nasty, it’s malicious, it’s cheap, and it’s below the belt! i bet if they really want this fight they wouldn’t do this. they were inflexible earlier regarding this demand. facing a lawsuit, they become flexible. it also help to shut up GBP and team mayweather from their malicious and baseless allegations.
the negotiation still continues so we will see. manny confirmed again lately that he is not pulling out from the fight despite of the things he has gone thru and despite of intending to file a case in court.
a lawsuit can turn into a court trial and award an aggravated party from damages suffered. accusing someone of using illegal substance is no joke. it is the court of law, not the mob, that will decide if the accusations are TRUE base on evidence.
-so there is this boxer named manny pacquiao who works very hard and eventually became very, very successful on his profession that he became the no. 1 boxer in the world. there are people tho who accused him of being a cheater WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE and they offered him an opportunity to PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT HE IS NOT A CHEATER but he declined. since he declined then he is guilty.
there is something so wrong in the situation outlined above. as i’ve said, if i’m manny i will surely sue my accusers. this is shameful. nobody treats anyone like this. not on a civilize society.
First you say you are not taking either side but then in the next few sentences you say you think Pacquiao is trying to dodge something while Mayweather is trying to find the truth. How is that not taking sides?
Once again, do you believe a person is guilty until proven innocent or innocent until proven guilty? Until I know where you stand on this, I wouldn’t know what you are trying to say
I’ll try to clarify your statements in another way:
Are you saying YOU think Pacquiao is trying to dodge something or are you saying YOU think the public will wrongfully think he is trying to judge something?
correction “…trying to hide (not judge) something?”
@guest
Why would you want Manny to sue Team Floyd? You should be rooting for compromise and for that not to happen. The further this thing moves towards the courts, it moves away from the ring.
@Gil
Ok, I’ve written this a few times already, but I have no problem doing it again.
Originally, I thought it was a cheap shot for Team Mayweather to add this drug testing stipulation to the fight near the end of the negotiations. If it wasn’t a play, it should’ve been brought up in the beginning of the negotiations.
Manny could’ve dealt with it in a way to push the fight forward like through compromise (instead of having Arum stick his foot in his mouth 24/7), or he should’ve just walked away because in theory, Floyd needs this fight just as much as he does. He is the hotter boxer. By claiming that he’ll sue Team Mayweather, he takes a sport in a way that it doesn’t need to go, and as I’ve stated before, it’s akin to a kid talking his basketball and going home. Either fight, or don’t fight. You sue, and it seems like you’re hiding something.
If I’m in Manny’s shoes, I compromise and probably try to have the blood test 48 hours before the fight (though, if people were really worried about HGH, it probably leaves your body quicker than that), and then immediately after the fight. It seems like Team Mayweather would be ok with that. Is it exactly what Manny wanted? No. But still, it looks like he’s willing to work and compromise for the fans. But by suing, it cheapens his character. It shows me that instead of compromising, he’s figuring out a way to not have to test at all, and then I wonder why he’s doing that. If someone questioned my character and I was 100% clean, I’d either put up, or shut up. But I wouldn’t sue someone for defamation of character. It makes it look like I’m trying to hide.
Do I think Manny is dirty? No, and I said that in my first piece. After he claimed to be suing Mayweather instead of compromising, it doesn’t question my initial thought on the matter.
In connecting the dots, based on the information that’s out there, I think the majority of the casual fans will think that Pacquiao doesn’t want the fight if he does in fact sue Mayweather. Remember, sports fans have been conditioned to think that athletes are guilty before proven innocent. That’s how this drug stuff worked in baseball.
GG
Ok, now that we agree that neither of us (or all three of us , inc guest) think Manny is dirty, our disagreement lies in how the lawsuit affects public opinion.
Your take is that it cheapens him because as you said, when has the courts decided the truth?
I guess that statement is the crux of our problem. I still believe in the justice system as a way of vindicating and finding out the truth. You apparently think otherwise.
You also talk about compromise. Take note that Manny’s pronouncement to sue came after both sides said they wouldn’t budge from their positions. No compromises. If that initial situation stood, what would you rather Manny have done? Just walk away and not seek any redress?
What do you think public opinion will say? That he walked away, so he must be clean? It was a no win situation for Manny from the time May Sr made his accusation. Any disagreement to any type of testing would be have resulted in the same public opinion, lawsuit or none. The only redress possible is in a court of law. But then, you dont believe in that, so that’s that.
“If someone questioned my character and I was 100% clean, I’d either put up, or shut up.”
Neither. I would SHUT YOU UP (with a lawsuit).
Putting up means accepting the dare no matter how unreasonable. Shutting up means I am probably guilty.
Shutting you up means you better back that up or spend the rest of your life penniless.
I don’t think our justice system is corrupt, but there have been many situations to where the resolution seems to be about money.
The compromise comment from me comes after GBP agreed to not use the Olympic standard and use another group to do the drug testing, just like Bob Arum requested. And then Arum immediately backed down and said he would only do business with the NSAC. Don’t you think that kind of stuff only hurts Pacquiao’s case?
I agree that it was a no-win situation for Manny, but originally without much known in this situation, it was Mayweather’s side who was seen as a bully and as not genuine (which was my case in the first post). If Manny walked away from “crazy” Mayweather, the fans would just think this was Mayweather’s fault.
Now? I think the public has shifted. Manny has played into their hands rather than play it smart, and I’m not so sure it’s entirely his fault because as I stated, Arum has said some really idiotic things about this.
What is the lawsuit proving though? It’s only proving whether or not Team Mayweather defamed him. It’s not proving whether or not Pacquiao is taking drugs, or whether or not they will fight. To the public, Manny’s lawsuit doesn’t clear him in any way. It just further postpones what they want which is a super fight. So again, he loses, but this time it’s his fault.
You think it’s going to say anything about his character if he wins the lawsuit? You’ve been saying all along that it’s only about defamation and not about the situation at hand. So how does that shut anyone up?
No one cares if Team Mayweather has defamed Manny because it won’t prove if Manny is clean or not based on what the law will say.
So let’s step back again.
You would either put up and go through the drug testing process and prove that you’re clean.
Or, you’d walk away and scoff at his silly demands.
Now you’re saying you’d shut Mayweather up with a character defamation suit which doesn’t clear your name in any way. It only decides if Mayweather defamed you or not.
So how does the third option work again?
I am with you 100% on this CG. You couldn’t have said it any better.
I just took a poll on a non-boxing website, but the members are MMA and pro wrestling fans.
Here were the results:
In the Mayweather-Pacquiao situation, do you think:
Pacquiao is afraid of real drug testing
108 42%
Current drug testing is fine, Mayweather is playing head games
47 18.3%
Mayweather is looking for a way out of the fight
37 14.4%
Current drug testing is flawed but we all know that and Mayweather has violated the code
31 12.1%
Both sides are working together to drum up publicity
28 10.9%
Pacquiao is looking for a way out of the fight
6 2.3%
Look at how many people think Pacquiao is afraid to drug test.
By the way, my vote was for, “Current drug testing is flawed but we all know that and Mayweather has violated the code.”
GG
GG:”You think it’s going to say anything about his character if he wins the lawsuit? You’ve been saying all along that it’s only about defamation and not about the situation at hand. So how does that shut anyone up?”
Me: If Manny wins the lawsuit, you don’t think the media and talk show hosts will have a field day talking about how loud-mouth Mays got what was coming to them? In a few years time, maybe more, do you think the boxing world will still talk about why Manny refused to take the test or about how and why Mayweather lost his life’s earnings because he cannot keep his mouth shut ? Public opinion is as fickle as the wind and everybody loves winners.
Here’s how history will read your scenario -
Former p4p king Manny Pacquiao who was accused of taking drugs by the Mayweathers walked away from a $40 million fight with his accuser because he thought taking an intrusive drug test was a silly demand
Here’s how history will read mine -
Former p4p king Manny Pacquiao who was accused of taking drugs by the Mayweathers walked away from a $40 million fight with his accuser because he refused to take an intrusive drug test. He was later vindicated in court by winning a defamation lawsuit which alleged he was taking drugs. The court required Mayweather to pay him $40 million as redress.
You dont think that makes any difference?
Your poll was not necessary as we already agreed that Manny is not dirty but public opinion would still be against Manny. You said its because of the lawsuit, I said lawsuit or not. That’s what we are discussing now.
Bro, I think you’re slightly out of touch here. Don’t you see where this is going?
“In a few years time, maybe more, do you think the boxing world will still talk about why Manny refused to take the test or about how and why Mayweather lost his life’s earnings because he cannot keep his mouth shut ? Public opinion is as fickle as the wind and everybody loves winners.”
This steroid/HGH/PEDs stuff is simply going to get worse. We’ve barely opened the can on this.
“Former p4p king Manny Pacquiao who was accused of taking drugs by the Mayweathers walked away from a $40 million fight with his accuser because he refused to take an intrusive drug test. He was later vindicated in court by winning a defamation lawsuit which alleged he was taking drugs. The court required Mayweather to pay him $40 million as redress.”
That 40 million number is hilarious by the way. Also, how can you be vindicated by winning a defamation suit? All it will say is that Mayweather was guilty of slander. It won’t say that he’s clean. In fact, I believe if he goes through with this, it will get worse, even if he is vindicated. He’s opened up his own can of worms now.
I think your history scenario would’ve been spot on about 15 years ago. Today, it will never happen that way.
I shared the poll to share the poll, not to prove a point.
I didn’t know we agreed that Pacquiao’s rep has been lowered. I think I said that I’m guessing it has. And it’s not only because of the lawsuit, but the lawsuit portion of it absolutely doesn’t help. It’s because of many things, including not complying with the drug test in a new culture where fans want to know anything and everything about their athletes, Arum’s idiotic statements, Team Pacquiao’s backtracking (mostly because of Arum), and now this silly lawsuit.
The point is, based on everything that has happened, the majority in that poll thinks Pacquiao is on drugs. Not saying that’s entirely the public opinion because the demographic on that site is more cynical just based on being fans of MMA and wrestling.
Just remember, this isn’t about my opinion against yours. Whatever information I share here is for a reason and to give the people reading as much information as possible.
“It wont say he is clean”.
It will say there is no basis for saying he is dirty. That to me is the same thing and the general public will agree with me. Innocent unless proven guilty, remember?
“The steroid/HGH/PEDs stuff will get worse”.
Yeah, like people still care why Ali dodged the draft. Didn’t the courts vindicate him too?
“$40 million number is hilarious”.
$40 mil or $ 4 mil, I doubt if Mayweather will find it as hilarious.
“Just remember, this isn’t about my opinion against yours. Whatever information I share here is for a reason and to give the people reading as much information as possible.”
The info is good, but you have to admit you also have opinions about it that we differ and are trying to resolve. If it were just info, I would find this very boring
Do you really think we’re trying to agree on this? I don’t think we will. We can still provide compelling arguments. That’s what I think is fun.
I wouldn’t compare this HGH/PED/roids stuff to Ali and dodging the draft. There were a ton of people who felt like he did, whether or not they had the same religious background as he did, and even if it turned out that he was simply following the orders of the Muslims. There are zero people in the corner of people who cheat. That’s the difference in this situation, unless Pac is vindicated.
I guess that’s one more thing we cannot agree on: the definition of vindicated. Your definition requires Manny to prove he is innocent. For me, its enough to prove there was no basis to accuse him, so therefore he is innocent
“There are zero people in the corner of people who cheat” …
If it can be proved he did cheat.
There are a ton of people who are in the corner of people who are accused of cheating without basis.
Latest on the issue – http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=4777048&campaign=rss&source=BOXINGHeadlines.
Pacquiao may have taken a blood test just two weeks before his fight with Ricky Hatton, which throws that 30 day window thing out the, well, window.
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